"The ugly duckling", the story of Benetton's B195

Originally posted by umapathypon
Could have been Johnny Herbert's uncle.

Maybe he is an earlier username of Frans?

And now for the interesting stuff:

Johnny Herbert tested for Benetton along with Schumacher in October 1994:

October, 1994
The Motoring News has a report of Johnny Herbert's Benetton test
at Barcelona. The test started last Thursday (the 20th) in mixed
weather. Johnny started with a 1m 50.18s in the wet. His day was
cut short by a spin and an engine failure. Michael Schumacher was
at the test for a day and a half. Late on the Thursday, he clocked
1m 23.43s - 1.5s slower than pole position earlier this year.

On the Friday, Herbert put in some better laps, finishing the
afternoon with 1m 23.84s late in the day after using two sets of
tyres. Johnny was happy with his time. He was losing 0.3s a lap at
the tyre chicane. He said "... I wasn't about to push really hard
through there and make myself look stupid if maybe I tweaked a corner
off or whatever. Not on this test. He continued, "It was a good
test but it was dark when I set my time. Michael had set his time at
a similar time the day before, but my problem was that I had a dark
helmet and I couldn't see a thing !"

He was very impressed with the car. "Its a stage better aerodynamically
than the Ligier, and it has masses of traction. You can brake mega-late
and just turn in. Normally, you would feather the throttle, turn in,
wait for the back end to stop pattering and then accelerate out of a
corner. But with the Benetton, you just floor the throttle and come
straight out. You don't lose any time."

"This is what a Formula One car should be like. I've always thought
that they should be just like big karts, and this one is just that.
Its much much better than anything that I've driven in F1, even those
other cars with their full aerodynamic floors and everything."

"All of this helps your confidence. The fast corners feel miles
better. Its been really good to have a go in a car that you can
actually do something with. You feel you can properly go quicker;
by that I mean that you can set a time, and then set another limit
with the car when you really start to push it. I'd heard that its
twitchy, and it is. But you have to push beyond that. And when you
do, it becomes quite stable.

Will he drive for Benetton in Japan ? Apparently three sets of
Mild Seven overalls have already been made up with J.P. Herbert's
name on them.

Another post, notice Schumacher's comments quite funny:

Johnny Herbert had his first Benetton test alongside Schumacher
last Thursday (Oct 20th). Sorry, I forgot where the test was, but
he ended up within .4s of Schumacher.

His test was eventful however. Within the first 7 laps of the test
he had put the car into the sandtrap and blown an engine.

Schumacher was later asked what he thought of Johnny. He said something
to the affect, first he puts my car into the sandtrap, then he blows my
engine up, and he's a poor football player

Schumacher's real response though as posted before was not quite as funny:

L'Automobile Magazine, December 1995
"During the winter tests, the difference between Johnny Herbert's
performance and mine was small in some tests. I have asked the team
- which has accepted - that the data concerning my driving was not
showed to him. I don't see why I would have offered him the means
of, maybe, beating me."

Originally posted by karlth
And now for the interesting stuff:

Johnny Herbert tested for Benetton along with Schumacher in October 1994:



Another post, notice Schumacher's comments quite funny:



Schumacher's real response though as posted before was not quite as funny:

Just took a look at the original post about Schumacher's 'real' quote(There were some interesting things apart from the quote itself).Strangely i was reminded of HSJ's posts.

Here is the original post(by someone like you or me or Herbert's uncle or Frans):

http://groups.google....autos.sport.f1.*&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=4a6q6b%24h2o%40gnu3.mat.uc.pt&rnum=1

Originally posted by umapathypon
Just took a look at the original post about Schumacher's 'real' quote(There were some interesting things apart from the quote itself).Strangely i was reminded of HSJ's posts.

I posted for some years as a fanatical Hill fan on the Usenet when it was the only online venue for F1 discussion and Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro, along Fredrik Knutsen, was probably the most respected poster there. (Plus of course Nick Wirth)

That was probably way before most of you Schumacher fans were even born.

A few gems from that article:

BTW, in the same issue Alesi talks about the estoril test. Some points:
- he was very afraid of not being able to drive the Benetton at
Schumacher's level, specially since there was so much talk about
the Benetton being undrivable to anyone except Schumacher.

In fact Alesi found the car very easy to drive ! He said that
one problem was that the car induced an excess of confidence ,
which explained his 3 spins on the first day of tests.
But he also said that the car doesn't forgive the excesses.

Originally posted by umapathypon
A few gems from that article:

"induced an excess of confidence, which explained his 3 spins on the first day of tests. But he also
said that the car doesn't forgive the excesses."

Probably the same number of spins that Schumacher had in his F1 test "Sunday drive" at Silverstone in 1991.

Karlth, it was a Tuesday , secondly, I don't think I've read anything about spinning the Jordan at Silverstone. I may have missed it though.

Originally posted by karlth
Originally posted by umapathypon
A few gems from that article:

"induced an excess of confidence, which explained his 3 spins on the first day of tests. But he also
said that the car doesn't forgive the excesses."

Probably the same number of spins that Schumacher had in his F1 test "Sunday drive" at Silverstone in 1991.

I dont think Schumacher spun thrice during that "Sunday drive",though

Originally posted by umapathypon
I dont think Schumacher spun thrice during that "Sunday drive",though

"... Sure, he had a couple of minor spins, but that was exploration, rather than exuberance."

Ok, two then.

Ok, a spin is a spin. But how many kms in an F1 car did Alesi have and, how many KMs had Alesi driven at Estoril. Also, were Alesi's spins exploration or exuberance. Things to consider.

you know karlth,despite your pleadings on his behalf,the more and more i read of this Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro guy,the more and more i feel that he's a disgruntled Alesi fan. Btw,very interesting to note that none found it worthwhile to participate in that thread where he posted the report on Schumacher.

Originally posted by umapathypon
you know karlth,despite your pleadings on his behalf,the more and more i read of this Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro guy,the more and more i feel that he's a disgruntled Alesi fan. Btw,very interesting to note that none found it worthwhile to participate in that thread where he posted the report on Schumacher.



Ok, then. A poster called JOHNNY B. GOOD is then probably more to your liking, look him up.

I'll look up Johnny B.Good soon enough...;)

Seriously,i feel kind of bad posting this('cause it's almost like making a judgement on his character and i dont even know the guy). But still,i feel that it's very importnat for the context of this argument.

> Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro writes
> >I have strongly disliked Schumacher since 1994 and I make no secret
> >about it (see my sig) but I can evaluate an incident with some
> >objectivity and the fault in this case was entirely Coulthard's.
> Rui, as a matter of interest who do you rate to be at fault in the
> similar incident between MS and DH at silverstone 1995?

I have no firm opinion. Damon's version (he wrote (in his 1996 book) that
the only error he did was to fall in Schumacher's trap, who supposedly
opened the door, only to close it immediately) is believable , specially
when you take into account the other incidents which Schumacher caused .

The alternative version that Damon tried an impossible pass is also
believable. It was what seemed to me at the time. I would rate the
first version 70% probabilty and the second 30% . Anyway I am sure
that Schumacher could have tried harder to avoid the accident (see
Coulthard versus Herbert who were able to make the curve side by
side some laps later).

Tuomo O. Vuolteenaho (ptuomov@gsbphd5.uchicago.edu) wrote:
> I have traditionally been a die-hard Schumacher supporter.

But now that the championship fight seems to be between him and
Mika Hakkinen (a Finn, like you) you have changed your mind ?

There are lots more... .But let me stop with this. Essentially,i am not sure about the credibility of the source.

Originally posted by umapathypon
But let me stop with this. Essentially,i am not sure about the credibility of the source.

As Schumacher's quote is lifted directly from an interview I think it is difficult to ignore it.

Rui was never a particular fan of Schumacher but then again that is the mark of all good F1 posters. (jk)

Originally posted by karlth
Originally posted by umapathypon
But let me stop with this. Essentially,i am not sure about the credibility of the source.

As Schumacher's quote is lifted directly from an interview I think it is difficult to ignore it.

i dont know about that.But i found some other thread where a supposed quote by Bernie was confirmed by Rui.When asked for a source,it was a lone Italian magazine that had run that quote.

This is what a poster had to say in reply to that...

Is the newspaper concerned a
tabloid, owned by Rupert Murdoch?

Steve Perry.

The same seems to be the case with this Schumacher quote. Found on a single post thread by a admittedly Schumacher hater .No link to the source posted at that time. No other known sources than a single magazine.Would be interesting to know if any other magazine reported the direct quote(that is, not as - Schumacher was quoted in so and so magazine saying).

Rui was never a particular fan of Schumacher but then again that is the mark of all good F1 posters. (jk)

karlth is a HSJ fan.

Originally posted by umapathypon
karlth is a HSJ fan.

That's low!!!

Originally posted by umapathypon
Would be interesting to know if any other magazine reported the direct quote(that is, not as - Schumacher was quoted in so and so magazine saying).

According to Rui the interview was written in L'Automobile Magazine, December 1995 and quoted in L'Auto hebdo, November 29, 1995.

Both highly respected magazines.

karlth is a HSJ fan.

He has the ability to laugh at himself which is an admirable trait.

Originally posted by karlth
Originally posted by umapathypon
[B]Would be interesting to know if any other magazine reported the direct quote(that is, not as - Schumacher was quoted in so and so magazine saying).

According to Rui the interview was written in L'Automobile Magazine, December 1995 and quoted in L'Auto hebdo, November 29, 1995.

Both highly respected magazines.

The report was only in L'Automobile Magazine. L'Auto hebdo just quoted the same. Regarding the respectability factor,after reading that piece on Alesi one would think that Alesi was just a few tenths off Michael's best time with the b195. Here is some info on those times...

Schumacher   Benetton	1'21.29   set on 1995-03-07 at Estoril

http://www.motorspor...p?ID=1707&FS=F1

Alesie - Benetton/Renault 1.22,38 set on 95-12-14 at Estoril

http://www.motorspor...p?ID=4096&FS=F1

I dont know how respectable they were with regards that article.

In the first half of the 95 season, JH was NOT allowed to look at MS's traces.

But, then again, so what.

Originally posted by karlth
Originally posted by umapathypon
A few gems from that article:

"induced an excess of confidence, which explained his 3 spins on the first day of tests. But he also
said that the car doesn't forgive the excesses."

Probably the same number of spins that Schumacher had in his F1 test "Sunday drive" at Silverstone in 1991.

the only very minute difference being ;

Schumacher = F1 rookie
Alesi = seasoned F1 racer

Originally posted by karlth


I posted for some years as a fanatical Hill fan on the Usenet when it was the only online venue for F1 discussion and Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro, along Fredrik Knutsen, was probably the most respected poster there. (Plus of course Nick Wirth)

That was probably way before most of you Schumacher fans were even born.

You were Internet geek for so long??
What do you do in your spare time?

Originally posted by karlth
Here is something interesting posted on the Usenet in 1996 by Graham Shevlin(?) :

Yo quote myself: Sounds reasonable, but given Herberts performance in that race one wonders what he told them... probably: "If I had had the same car and team backing I could have been second too"

Ok, to summarize, looks like all the effort of actually finding out what happened in the past is back in the waste-basket :

Back to whining and prejudice, I guess.

Thanks XPG, I read Julian Baileys words somewhere, but not the whole stuff.

F3000 in 1991 used to be pretty darn quick, just look at the pole time in Suzuka that is very close to F1!

Does anybody know something about the Hakkinen test that took place in 1991 for Benetton. Any info?

Johnny ideed was regarded very highly before his accident.

Originally posted by karlth
Here is something interesting posted on the Usenet in 1996 by Graham Shevlin(?) :

Schumacher was being hawked around the F1 teams at the time[Late 1991] by his management. He had
already contested a one-off Japanese F3000 race that season in a second Le Mans car rented
for the weekend by his sponsors, where his team mate was a certain J. Herbert (Schumacher had
the additional benefit of a development Mugen engine, and out-qualified Herbert. Bet Johnny
wishes he had committed that incident to memory for later use...) There was a lot of commercial
backing from Germany for him.

I'll just have to shoot some holes in this I guess:
1) Graham Who? Did Graham give any references? Or at the very least a reason why Schumacher would have a later development of the Mugen engine...?
2) The inference is obviously that Schumi was a paydriver (he was also being "hawked" by his managment, unlike other drivers I assume), any evidence for that? He had better credentials than most of the drivers who went to Formula Nippon, so why did he have to resort to underhanded tactics to obtain a ride -and why in Japan?
3) What the hell happened to this alleged engine after Schumacher left? Why didn't they give it to Herbert?
4) Schumacher had backing, is that a dirty thing? Because the poster certainly wants us to believe that it is.

Just for the record: MS had 20+ driving hours while making his driver's license which was slighty above average in his days (nowadays it is less so). In driving school his driving record was a common joke and worked for the pupils pretty much the same way as the remark that Einstein had bad grades in physics in school. After that, I didn't believe a second that my driving teacher will let me drive "only the necessary preparation time for the test". Eventually though I came out with less hours than Schumi.

Originally posted by umapathypon
you know karlth,despite your pleadings on his behalf,the more and more i read of this Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro guy,the more and more i feel that he's a disgruntled Alesi fan. Btw,very interesting to note that none found it worthwhile to participate in that thread where he posted the report on Schumacher.

His sig reads "an ex-tiffosi until the end of 1997", spot the loonie!

Originally posted by Foxbat

His sig reads "an ex-tiffosi until the end of 1997"

Probably the first becoming Schumi-Fan with Jerez!

Originally posted by karlth


I posted for some years as a fanatical Hill fan on the Usenet

Karlth:

Wasn't your username Mark J Frusciante or something like that?

Bean

Originally posted by karlth


I posted for some years as a fanatical Hill fan on the Usenet

Hmmh, from a fanatical Hill fan to a fanatical Montoya fan, that explains a lot of things and why I have problems with what you write.
I suppose Montoya is mildly more talented than Mr.Hill!

Originally posted by Foxbat
To return to the subject of Ralts. the part in Italics has been posted before:

For starters
The first race of the season was arguable the best for Herbert in terms of achievements (if not results).
Herbert qualified 5th and desite being passed by Jan Lammers, who stormed up the field from 8th to third to give the dutch-japanese Dome chassis a podium in it's first race, he managed to hang on to fifth by passing Martini. It seemed a solid enough start season start. But the season would soon turn out to be anything but solid for the Suntory-Le Mans team, and it would be three races until Herbert would be in the points.

Every dog has it's day
The fourth race of the season saw Herbert finishing a spectacular second, a result that must have seemed more unlikely than ever on Saturday when Johnny set a 13th time. His worst qualification so far that season. But the race saw no less than 12 cars retire, uncliding almost all of the front runners, the podium was filled with the weekends underachievers as they had qualified 18th, 13th and 11th respectively. The winners was the much plagued Eddie Irvine who was having a particulary bad season with the Cerumo team. Not only did he have to make do with the older Lola chassis, the team had also opted for Yokohama's terrible tires.

All's well that end's well
Herbert's second place would be equalled by Schumacher two races later, but for Herbert the torture wasn't over yet. He didn't score any points until the very end of the season; the postponed Fuji race.
Herbert had again qualified a lucky 13th, and when the race was eventually held 3 moths after it's plabnned date his luck held up. No less than 6 of the drivers who started a head of him retired, passing Martini (again!) was enough for 6th place and a final point. [/B]

Best of the rest
Sir Frank mentioned it already, not counting the Le Mans team there were only three points-scoring results for the Ralts (one 4th and two sixth place finishes).
So let's look at these results, the most spectacular was of course Minoru's fourth place finish at Mine that came on top of Herbert's second place in that race. Like the other top 6 finishers Minoru had qualified out of the top 10 and lost a spot to Weidler, but attrition give the bad teams the upper hand for this race.
The other two points were shared between Lees and Kurosowa. Lees had qualified 14th in Suzuka and although the usual heavy attrition helped (6 cars that had started ahead of Lees fell by the wayside) Lees had actually overtaken others to get that point.
Kurosowa's story was completely different however, while the others had trouble qualifyng Kurosowa qualified 4th twice, but fell back in the races managing to net only one point for his efforts.

End of the Line
Besides the Suntory Team Le Mans there were two teams that ran the Ralt. The Leyton House Racing Team that started switching between the Ralt, last years Leyton House and a Reynard by mid-season and eventually acquired a Dome. Nakajima Planning who opted to go back to the old Reynard they had ran the year before.
The next year Nisseki Racing Team and Nakajima briefly ran the updated Ralt until their Reynards were ready, that was the end of the line for the Ralts in Formula Nippon.

Adding up
So what we have is a car that seems to be in good in high attrition races, it's ability to start well back and avoid first-corner clashes no doubt helped in this regard. Didn't do particularly well in either qualifying or race, and tempted team owners to dust off their old cars.
Yet Schumacher took it out and equalled the best qualifying and finishing performances of the season, and he didn't need the better qualifiers to drop out to make up spots. So this looks like clear evidence of Schumacher going out and immediatly dominating his competitors, and as long as the only evidence against it is a usenet claim by some nobody that the race was rigged it stands.

Originally posted by Foxbat
So this looks like clear evidence of Schumacher going out and immediatly dominating his competitors, and as long as the only evidence against it is a usenet claim by some nobody that the race was rigged it stands.

The Usenet is not a dirty word Foxbat.

Perhaps Tim Scott knew that Schumacher had been using the development Mugen engine at Sugo. Perhaps that is why he was not impressed.

Originally posted by Mr. Bean
Wasn't your username Mark J Frusciante or something like that?


Close.

Originally posted by Sir Frank
Does anybody know something about the Hakkinen test that took place in 1991 for Benetton.

No, just a mention of it on some websites. Coulthard tested a Benetton in 1992, again no further information.

Originally posted by karlth

The Usenet is not a dirty word Foxbat.

Usenet may not be a dirty word, but a single claim by a single (and obviously biased) usenet poster without any evidence to back it up doesn't hold much weight does it.

Perhaps Tim Scott knew that Schumacher had been using the development Mugen engine at Sugo. Perhaps that is why he was not impressed.

Bollocks. There is no evidence for the existence of a "development Mugen engine" whatsoever, not for Schumacher not for anybody*. You are grasping at straws here taking to individually shaky claims and using them to hold each other up. Besides if he knew about the, otherwise seemingly secret, Mugen development engine wouldn't he have known what a dog the Ralt chassis was, no way that putting a slightly better engine in it would suddenly cause it to be the best car on the grid. And speaking of best cars, are we also to assume that Cheever had the crap Mugen engine?

* Just to refresh your memory here are my unanswered questions with regards to Graham Somobody's claim:

I'll just have to shoot some holes in this I guess:
1) Graham Who? Did Graham give any references? Or at the very least a reason why Schumacher would have a later development of the Mugen engine...?
2) The inference is obviously that Schumi was a paydriver any evidence for that? He had better credentials than most of the drivers who went to Formula Nippon, so why did he have to resort to underhanded tactics to obtain a ride -and why in Japan?
3) What happened to the alleged engine after Schumacher left? Why didn't they give it to Herbert?

Originally posted by Foxbat
Usenet may not be a dirty word, but a single claim by a single (and obviously biased) usenet poster without any evidence to back it up doesn't hold much weight does it.

Bollocks. There is no evidence for the existence of a "development Mugen engine" whatsoever, not for Schumacher not for anybody*. You are grasping at straws here taking to individually shaky claims and using them to hold each other up.

You are misunderstanding the situation a bit Foxbat. In those days the Usenet was the only real venue for F1 anorak communication. There really was nothing else. I remember a lot of rumors and biased commentary from those early days on the F1 part of the Usenet but I really don't remember any outright lies.

Think of the Usenet archives as Egyptian papyrus documents of the early 90s.

1) Graham Who? Did Graham give any references? Or at the very least a reason why Schumacher would have a later development of the Mugen engine...?

You seem to assume that because someone on the Usenet said Schumacher had access to a development Mugen it must be a lie. I'm not saying it must be true, just that it is a realistic possibility.

Perhaps Mugen valued Schumacher's input because of his Group C experience, remember how powerful those engines were, or perhaps someone paid for its use, remember this was his only race.

2) The inference is obviously that Schumi was a paydriver any evidence for that? He had better credentials than most of the drivers who went to Formula Nippon, so why did he have to resort to underhanded tactics to obtain a ride -and why in Japan?

I don't think receiving a more powerful engine than your teammate is underhanded tactics. It is just not a fair comparison between teammates. I really don't know if Schumacher was a pay driver in that race.

3) What happened to the alleged engine after Schumacher left? Why didn't they give it to Herbert?

Considering the lack of data on the subject I would only be guessing.

Originally posted by karlth

You are misunderstanding the situation a bit Foxbat. In those days the Usenet was the only real venue for F1 anorak communication. There really was nothing else. I remember a lot of rumors and biased commentary from those early days on the F1 part of the Usenet but I really don't remember any outright lies.

Think of the Usenet archives as Egyptian papyrus documents of the early 90s.

So this would fall under the header of rumor.

You seem to assume that because someone on the Usenet said Schumacher had access to a development Mugen it must be a lie. I'm not saying it must be true, just that it is a realistic possibility.

Bollocks, there is no support for his claim. Period.
Now we have a highly unlikely, but very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very convenient explanation for what seems to be a good performance on the part of Micheal Slowmacher. On top of that it is wrapped in package of vitriol, M$ was hawked to the other teams, he bought a ride, he had better equipment so he could show up his teammate, he had lot's of sponsorship. It is clear that whoever posted this wanted to make it clear that M$ wasn't in F1 because of his pace.

Perhaps Mugen valued Schumacher's input because of his Group C experience, remember how powerful those engines were, or perhaps someone paid for its use, remember this was his only race.

Perhaps someone at Mugen was a Celine Dion fan? Remember how Schumacher looks a bit like Celine Dion.
There was no Mugen consultation with Schumacher (and why give it to the n00bie and not someone with prior experience with the engine? It doesn't make sense) there is no link between Schumacher and Mugen either.
Remember of the 30+ teams that did the majority of the season only 2 were Cosworth entires, the rest had the same Mugen MF308 engine. It makes no sense that an unknown outsider would recieve the development spec engine.

I don't think receiving a more powerful engine than your teammate is underhanded tactics. It is just not a fair comparison between teammates. I really don't know if Schumacher was a pay driver in that race.

Of course it is, besides being very, very, [..] very convenient for those who want us to believe that we can't make Schumacher-Teammate comparisons. Also 90% of the grid ran the same engine, so if Schumacher had some super-duper version don't you think that would be underhanded? And wouldn't there be questions asked, specifically by the Promise Team Le Mans who were fighting the championship against Katayama and his Cosworth.

3) What happened to the alleged engine after Schumacher left? Why didn't they give it to Herbert?

Considering the lack of data on the subject I would only be guessing.

It would have made sense to give Herbert Schumacher's super-duper car after Schumacher had withdrawn from the Fuji race, but instead they allowed Herbie to struggle to the end (just like all the other Ralt runners, who were obviously also denied the whizzbang engine).

A bit more info from your friend Graham:

Right from the moment when Schumacher's manager and backers rented the LMC F3000 chassis for a one-off race in Japan in 1991 (complete with development Mugen engine, and exiling Johnny Herbert to the older-spec spare car in the process ...

It is probably best Foxbat that you telephone Graham and Tim Scott and challenge them to a duel.

Guns ready!

Originally posted by karlth
[B]A bit more info from your friend Graham:

Right from the moment when Schumacher's manager and backers rented the LMC F3000 chassis for a one-off race in Japan in 1991 (complete with development Mugen engine, and exiling Johnny Herbert to the older-spec spare car in the process ...

That at least makes more sense then MS getting a 'special' engine. But even so Schumacher only did 2 qualifications and one race, Herbert qualified 21-20-22 in a row and his best qualifying position up to the end of the year was 9th even though no one was using the good car after Micheal had left.
And newer-spec car or not Herbert seems to have been unable to make a fist in the rest of the races, his only points scoring position being achieved through attrition. While Schumacher took second right off the bat and trailed the leader home across the finish.

It is probably best Foxbat that you telephone Graham and Tim Scott and challenge them to a duel.

Guns ready!

It would certainly clear up some lingereing questions, such as what they base their claims on.