lynx   »   [go: up one dir, main page]

Catch up on stories from the past week (and beyond) at the Slashdot story archive

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror

Submission + - A major Canadian battery recycler just declared bankruptcy (www.cbc.ca)

sinij writes:

But just last month, the Toronto-based company filed for bankruptcy protection in the U.S. and Canada after years of struggling to get a facility off the ground in Rochester, N.Y. The company said the planned hub would have been able to extract lithium and other critical minerals from recycled material

While battery recycling is possible, in practice EV battery recycling continues to be undressed problem.

Comment Re: Well, well, ... (Score 1) 207

Of course, the ratio of mass of oil to mass of plastic is about 1.9 to 1. Basically, if you consider all the plastic and rubber in a car (we'll imagine the Civic from before) you have about 160 kg of it. So that would take about 304 kg of oil to make. If we consider that oil about equivalent to the mass of gasoline in a gas tank, the Civic has about 39 kg per tank of gas. That means that, even if you just burn all the plastic and rubber instead of recycling or reusing it, that's only worth about 8 tanks of gas worth of emissions.

I am having hard time understanding your calculation. How did you arrive to the conclusion that 160 kg of plastic getting 'disposed' is equivalent to only 304 kg of oil? Are you ignoring the cost of processing and manufacturing the part and only accounting for raw materials?

Comment Re: Well, well, ... (Score 1) 207

It does in fact follow... from the bathtub curve model you yourself presented. I explained that in detail later in my post, but you seem to have just skipped over that in your reply. It is completely obvious from the shape of the bathtub curve, you have a sharp decline in failures in the first stage, then a relatively stable stage. Not flat, but not sharp either, just a gentle flattened pseudo semicircle. Then you have a stage of sharply increasing failure. Essentially, your example claims that owners will give up on repair when the repair costs get too high. If we view the failure rate as a proxy for cost, the failure section for your car B gets steeper to represent cost. So, if both car owners give up when additional repair hits the same cost threshold, the car B owner gives up at a lower X coordinate (time) than the car A owner because the price has not risen as much on the Y axis. However, since it is a sharply rising curve (and not rising linearly, but on something approximating a section of an asymptotic curve) the X coordinate (time) where the car A owner's repair costs hit the same threshold is only marginally further along the X axis. This is the simple reality of the model that you presented - there are diminishing returns in terms of longevity to any advantage that the relative simplicity of the more polluting car, even if your other assumptions hold true. If you had any good argument against that, I think you would have made it. Choosing to ignore it speaks volumes.

I will assume you are arguing in good faith and just never owned an old car. Here is approximately how bathtub curve works in practice.

Year 1 to 3 is warranty. Anything that happens in this period is fixed by the dealership at no or minimal cost to the owner. These early failures are cost to the manufacturer and not car owner. Depreciation is steepest during this period.

Year 3 to 6 is 'optimal', failures are rare and usually minor. Car depreciation is average.

Year 6 to 8 is when wear and tear items have to be replaced. New tires, brake job, some suspension components are to be expected. Big failures are possible, but not typical. Depreciation is below average, as long as you sell before 100K.

Year 8 to 12. You start seeing major component fail. Issues like transmission failures, emission system repairs, major suspension components. It is unusual, but possible to have the car mechanically totaled during this period. Typically luxury vehicles get totaled in this range, as they depreciate most while costs to repair are highest.

Year 13 to 15.This is period we are discussing. Usually it is 3d of 4th owner with typical mileage of 150K+. By year 13 vehicle usually depreciated 80%+, so a typical non-luxury vehicle will be worth 10K or less. Serious issue, like transmission failure would not mechanically total it, but cascade of issue would. Additionally, the vehicle no longer get fixed to 'everything works' standard, but to much lower 'does it drive' standard. This results in accumulation of failures due to deferred work that results in it getting mechanically totaled when a major failure happens.

TL;DR You are wrong in your interpretation of bathtub curve as a rapid cascade of failures leading to the vehicle getting totaled. In practice, this does not happen. What happens is frequency of failures increases from about 1 per year for 8 year old car to 3-4 per year for 15 year old car. The accumulation of unaddressed failures is what results in the car getting written off. This accumulation is the direct result of cost of repairs (i.e., more expensive is to fix something, more likely it will go unaddressed unless it prevents the car from getting driven).

Comment Re: Well, well, ... (Score 1) 207

Sure, the owner with the more expensive car to repair will probably give up first, but the actual extension in lifetime for the less expensive car to repair is marginal at best.

This does not follow. One of the circumstances when old cars get scrapped is when a major fails component fails and the cost to repair exceeds the value of the car (i.e., mechanically totaled). As cars depreciate with time and use, cheaper the repairs, older the point where it would get mechanically totaled.

If we look at the technologies that actually reduce emissions in ICE cars, many of them may actually also increase the longevity of the car.

Absolutely, categorically no. No emission compliance equipment ever improved the car performance, longevity or made it cheaper. The closest would be fuel injection, but early mechanical injection systems were a nightmare to maintain, it is only much later when electronically controlled injection was developed by Bosch did things improve over carbureted engines.

Typical development cycle of emission equipment is: 1) unreliable expensive crap that nobody wants, 2) unreliable inexpensive crap that nobody wants, 3) somewhat reliable inexpensive crap that nobody cares about.

Now, the actual emissions cost of scrapping a car is irrelevant to this conversation

Using this logic, then tailpipe emissions are also irrelevant.

Still though, I also wanted to consider the what it actually takes to, for example, melt a car.

Go visit a junk yard. It is ecological disaster all around. We only pretend that cars get recycled, the reality that plastic, rubber, glass are not.

Comment Re: Well, well, ... (Score 1) 207

In context of my argument we don't have these additional considerations as it is direct comparison. My argument is very simple - if it costs too much to repair then people will scrap the car earlier than they otherwise would and this in turn results in higher lifetime emissions. Therefore, when optimizing for tailpipe emissions we need to also take into account effects of added complexity on repairability.

To demonstrate by example. If Car A and Car B both have the same bathtub curve, but Car B is twice as expensive to repair, then Car B will get scrapped earlier than Car A. Therefore, everything else being equal, Car A will have lower lifetime emissions.

Comment Re: Well, well, ... (Score 4, Interesting) 207

You missed my point. Each car has a lifetime emissions associated with manufacturing and disposal. Shortening useful life results in overall emission increase due to that. So more complex cars that are not getting fixed due to prohibitive costs will emit more due to that. You can't over-optimize for the tailpipe emissions.

Comment Re: Well, well, ... (Score 2) 207

Funny how that also works with emissions. Cars that are new right now are much harder to fix due to all complex emission equipment, nobody going to pay prohibitive costs to fix them once they get old so they will pollute more (or get scrapped early) increasing the overall emissions. Meanwhile 60s VW Bug and 80s Toyota Hilux will still be around.

Slashdot Top Deals

The meat is rotten, but the booze is holding out. Computer translation of "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

Working...
Лучший частный хостинг